Fobi Insider - Episode 9: Closing the Loop

On this week's episode of the Fobi Insider (Previously Loop Experience), we talk to Fobi's Senior Vice President of Business Development Mike Canevaro. We dig into how Locally's real-time location insights help to augment Fobi's unmatched omnichannel marketing for businesses in each of its key verticals.

Listen to Fobi Insider - Episode 9: Closing the Loop

The following is a transcript of the conversation between Fobi Marketing Director Devon Seidel and Senior Vice President of Business Development Mike Canevaro.

Fobi SVP of Business Development Mike Canevaro: I mean, Locally was in ... If I were to really boil it down, and I have to be careful because some listeners might get scared. We track human movement. And I say that in a way so as not to scare people because we weren't and we aren't the bad guys, but effectively because the mobile phone was omnipresent and is omnipresent in all of our hands, a lot of people carry two of them, it afforded us an ability to learn more about human movement. And that's really how we positioned ourselves within marketing, within finance, within other verticals.

You know, we live in this digital world, but we're still physical as consumers and we still get up in the morning and drive to work and we pass a local coffee shop, or we hit the local pub on Thursday night. Understanding where consumers are coming from, where they're going to, in addition to the purchase habits and behaviors, those two things I can tell you are, are the holy grail of sorts for things like marketing attribution and ROI on spend and to help retailers truly deliver kind of back to that personalized experience that I referenced earlier, that they're all after. And I think 2020 and COVID accelerated a lot of that digital transformation. And I think bringing the IP from Locally together with Loop, at this time, at that time last year when we did this, it's just perfect timing.

Fobi Marketing Director Devon Seidel: Hey, you're listening to the Loop Experience Podcast. Join us for exclusive interviews behind the scenes updates and all things Loop.

Coming at you from the head office storage room, I'm your host, Dev. Welcome back to the Loop Experience Podcast. Our guest today is Mike Canevaro, Loop's senior vice president of business development. Welcome to the show, Mike.

Mike: Thanks, Dev. Good to be with you.

Devon: Awesome. Mike, before we dive into all the great things that you're working on at Loop, let's get our listeners up to speed on why you're such an asset here at Loop. You first started out as an avionics engineer with the United States Navy, right?

Mike: That's right, yeah.

Dev: How did that lead to a career in wireless IP, consumer experience, semiconductor, digital media industries. I can see some connection there, but to where you are today, it seems like a little bit of a jump.

Mike: Definitely a circuitous route to get to where I am today. Look, I think going way back to the beginning, you know, I was 17 years old when I joined the Navy. I think like a lot of young kids coming out of high school, don't really know what I wanted to do. And as the posters tell us, “It's a great way to see the world.” But yeah, look, I think the experiences from the Navy certainly led me on a path within the engineering world and others, and into my first job. It was actually in advertising. That really spawned kind of just an interest in the technology behind the advertising and how it works. Again, that's many years ago now, but early days of internet advertising and streaming media. I think delving into the technology behind it and the commercialization of technology behind it, put me on a path that has been actually at the intersection, I think of kind of entertainment and content and technology almost my whole career.

Devon: That's great. I want to touch on a few of those major milestones because I know you're modest and you probably won't bring them up unless I bring them into the conversation. But kind of you started on one of your first main roles was VP of business development, and one of the actual original founders of APT Licensing, which brought aptX audio technology to devices such as Apple and Samsung. Can you touch a little bit on that?

Mike: Yeah, that's right. Apt and what was later affectionately known as the aptX codec was again, a piece of professional engineering grade technology that we wanted to bring down into consumer devices. Timing was really good as well. We were just at the very beginning stages of the explosion of Bluetooth technology for audio, so wireless speakers were kind of just the beginning of the rage and we had an opportunity to really be focused on audio quality. Before I started aptX with my partners, I worked for a company called SRS Labs in the audio space, which had an avionics pedigree and an aviation pedigree to it. And so I spent some time in audio technology prior to APT. And what we saw was that quality was important. It wasn't just a rush to make wireless earphones, like we all use today. It was was initially targeted at the higher end of the market.

And so we started that business, had great success early on. And again, kind of coinciding with the success, the early success of Bluetooth. And yeah, we got some great wins with Samsung and with Apple. I've kind of got the battle scars to prove it for sure. We parlayed that into an acquisition by the leading Bluetooth semiconductor company in the world at the time, Cambridge Silicon Radio in the UK. Yeah, it was a good run. Exciting times for sure in the early days of wireless consumer electronics.

Devon: Great. And then you mentioned CSR there. What was your role as soon as you got acquired by them?

Mike: Yeah. We continued to lead efforts within initially the aptX world. So continuing to gain licenses. CSR chips were found in those days in every Nokia, Blackberry, and the new Apple iPhone, which had just come out and iPods. And so we parlayed a lot of the CSR success they had in hardware to then introducing this great audio capability into those devices. And so I initially ran that and then ultimately, I had some good success in sales and business development throughout the organization. And then ultimately, I was tapped by the CEO to run an early day IoT business. That begins to bring some parallels, I think for folks to what we're doing today, really.

I mean, it was very early days of connected devices and understanding how to build an early stage SaaS or service model tied to a device. And so yeah, I was tapped by the CEO at the time to do that and we stood up that business, built a successful business there for a hardware company. And then again, parlayed that into another accent to Qualcomm.

Devon: You were the head of global business development at Qualcomm when you jumped over there?

Mike: Yeah. I mean, originally when I landed, I was, again, as the transitions occur within these companies, we continued to focus on the service business, which again, in a great parallel to what we're doing at Loop today. It was the early days of proximity marketing, beacon technology and mobile engagement. As it happens with these hardware technology companies, they get into service businesses and then they spin these service businesses out.

I'd like to say that everything that we were doing at CSR and then Qualcomm parlayed into Qualcomm success with their business, which was called Gimbal. And so it was interesting times. And as I said, by luck or just surrounding myself with really, really good people, we were able to parlay that success into some really, really fun design wins. And as I said, I mean, the market matured with respect to proximity marketing and geolocation capabilities and all of that sort of stuff. The entrepreneur in me saw an opportunity to do something unique and and that led us to starting our next company.

Devon: And that one's Locally.

Mike: That's right. Yeah, that's right. Initially, we started it as a brand called Digital To Go, and the idea was, let's build beacons, let's get them everywhere, let's use those beacons to reach out and touch consumers on the shoulder in a personalized manner. Frankly, watching that over the last, I call it seven to 10 years, grow has been just phenomenal to a point in time where the maturity of the market today is quite rewarding to say that I was in the early days of creation of iBeacons, and Google had a flavor of that as well and working with those companies at the same time.

Dev: Yeah, I think that's so exciting to see the whole industry that you're working in evolve. And especially with the launch of, I guess, Apple launching the iPhone, which being that first computer that you're having in your pocket. And then now seeing ... I mean, everyone has an iPhone, everyone has a Samsung, everyone has these smartphones that now have that original technology that you were building off. Did you ever foresee that the technology that you were building was literally going to be in every person's pocket?

Mike: Definitely not. I think I can't say that I did. I think we knew in the early days some of the capabilities. And look, as I said earlier, I mean, I was really lucky to be surrounded by some brilliant engineers working with really innovative companies like Apple and Samsung and others. I mean, we worked with Beats in the early days when they just started, before they were acquired by Apple. Again, innovative engineers kind of pushing the boundaries. I always looked at the launch of the iPhone and then all of the subsequent innovations of the iPhone is a platform for companies like ours to innovate upon. And it continues to all really come together well. And so when we launched Locally to drive location-based engagement and personalized offers, as I said that, the advertising and marketing industry had matured kind of through streaming to internet and then now onto mobile. Like I said, I mean, we hit it at the right time and it's been an exciting thing to be a part of the entire time.

Devon: Do you think because you had so much experience with the actual technology of, like you say, iBeacons and Bluetooth, that gave you a real competitive advantage at Locally, because you knew how all of this hardware worked and how to take advantage of it to, like you said, supply personalized marketing, location-based advertising, and all those pieces?

Mike: Yeah, definitely. I mean, when we started Locally, then Digital To Go, we thought of ourselves as a beacon company first, and then we quickly identified that the beacon was really a means to an end, which is why we originally thought about our company as a network. We thought that if we could get beacons deployed, which we did, into thousands of retail locations, it was a network that we could effectively control and own much like a telco controls the network. And you're not really paying for the hardware, you're paying for all of the services and capabilities and marketing and benefits on top of that. I think in some way, because of our experience, and my partner Locally had come from Qualcomm as well, and I think because of our experience there, understanding the hardware side of the business, understanding all of that goes into the manufacturing of the devices and the capabilities, I do think it afforded us in the early days, a bit of competitive advantage in bringing that capability to market.

In late, I guess, in 2019, I think we were reaching nearly a hundred million mobile devices through Locally. I mean, that's a huge testament not just as I said, to some really smart people on my team and other companies we've worked with, but just to the sheer reach and capability. As you mentioned, Dev, I mean, the omnipresent phone in your hand, like I keep saying, it was a marriage of a lot of things all at the same time.

Devon: Let's take a little step back quickly just for our listeners that may not have read into Locally and Loop's acquisition of Locally, but kind of what is the elevator pitch of what Locally does and what is the benefit to the market of what Locally provides?

Mike: Yeah. Look, I mean, Locally was in ... If I were to really boil it down, and I have to be careful because some listeners might get scared. We track human movement. And I say that in a way so as not to scare people because we weren't and we aren't the bad guys, but effectively because the mobile phone was omnipresent and is omnipresent in all of our hands, a lot of people carry two of them, it afforded us an ability to learn more about human movement. And that's really how we positioned ourselves within marketing, within finance, within other verticals that we worked with. It was understanding the behavior patterns of a device. We never knew anything about the person behind the device. We never collected personal information. And today at Loop, we still don't. Not just because of laws and regulations around the world, but because morally that's not who we are as a company and morally that's not who we were as a company at Locally.

But by understanding the way a device moves in physical places, you can begin to understand a lot more about who the folks are behind the device. And again, not using personal information. We never collected phone numbers, we didn't have that capability, but it allowed us to work with our partners be it brands, be it retailers, be it financial institutions to help better understand consumer movement in physical spaces. That was our pitch, that was our hook, so to speak.

You know, we live in this digital world, but we're still physical as consumers and we still get up in the morning and drive to work and we pass the local coffee shop, or we hit the local pub on Thursday night. And by understanding those characteristics and those behaviors as individuals, you know, we all crave a personalized experience and we were able to help drive that.

It also speaks to some of the privacy concerns that had been in the marketplace about companies like Locally. And in data conversations that we here at Loop get into with our customers, which is, as consumers, we expect personalization on our devices, we expect personalization experiences with brands, and we've come accustomed to using location as a method for those personal experiences. You open up your Uber app, it knows where you are. That's how the car finds you. You open up your calendar app, it knows that it's going to take X amount of time to get to the meeting, whenever you go back to in-person meetings, right? And so location is a powerful function of all of these great personal experiences. And I think at Locally, that's where we excelled. That's the marriage that Loop and Locally brought together.

Devon: Great. And then, yeah, like you mentioned there, Loop and Locally, so how is Loop leveraging that human movement insights and how are we adding it into our product stack?

Mike: Yeah. You know, Locally has some really innovative technology around locations. So triggering experiences based upon where someone was in the physical world. So triggering a digital experience. When I first met Rob and the team at Loop 18 months or so ago, it was actually quite interesting. We were literally just astonished at the level of data that Loop was able to connect to at the point of sale for marketing, for attribution, for retail. That is truly the last, it's not the last mile, it's the last few feet and the last few inches. What Loop was doing 18 months ago was so innovative and I think in some ways for some retailers and some brands, it was so new to them. And so the marriage of understanding what happens inside a physical retail location, which we at Loop today excel really well at. Because the ultimate transaction that occurs, tells us so much about consumers and Locally brought the pre and post visit, so to speak.

So whether it's in any industry that we at Loop work in today, it's retail, it's travel, tourism, hospitality, it's live sports and entertainment, understanding where consumers are coming from, where they're going to, in addition to the purchase habits and behaviors, those two things I can tell you are the holy grail of sorts for things like marketing attribution and ROI on spend and to help retailers truly deliver kind of back to that personalized experience that I referenced earlier, that they're all after. And I think 2020 and COVID accelerated a lot of that digital transformation. And I think bringing the IP from Locally together with Loop, at this time, at that time last year when we did this, it's just timing. It's really just perfect timing. And it's such a well-rounded solution of using location as an input data source. As we know, Dev, data's everything for these customers of ours, but just having data is only one part of it, being able to act upon it is another. And so bringing the two platforms together, affords us the ability now to do that.

Devon: I think what you said, being able to act upon it, and Loop's ability to provide that data in real time is a really big difference because there's tons of great marketing companies and marketing automation companies out there, but unless they're being fed the data in real time, there's such a limit to what they can do. So being able to provide that real time, straight from the POS data or real time other ingestible data that Loop can do combined with that location data is like what you said, being able to actually activate a promotion for that customer on the spot, not waiting for it to sync up overnight or over a week, and then providing a tailored promotion back to them.

Mike: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because omnichannel has been a buzzword now for a number of years, and whether it's omnichannel marketing or engagement or what have you, but true omnichannel marketing is in the moment. It's you purchase something and an event occurs on your device or an ad occurs. And we've all seen it. We're on the web and we're looking at cars and then later on Instagram, and we see the same car ads. That's all great retargeting capabilities, but true omnichannel has to be in the moment in real time. And so much data that is collected around the world these days, as data is collected, as you mentioned, maybe it's at the end of the day or it's batch and it's delivered, well, how can a retailer or a brand act in the moment, in real time in that true omnichannel experience if they're not getting real up to the minute data.

So location data is powerful and real and in the moment. Transaction data is absolutely in the moment. I just purchased something, now I want to get rewarded. Or I'm about to, there's intent there, I'm about to purchase something, we know you're in the store, let's reward you, and let's ensure that you make the purchase.

When I think about our real-time capabilities, it lends itself so nicely. And it's reinforced in so many conversations with brands and retailers to that omnichannel experience. And it reinforces that more so today. And I have to tell you, I mean, being in this space now for 10 plus years, technology, 20 plus, 25 years, don't want to date myself, I've not seen a total solution around real-time data and activation of that real-time data. And when I say activation, I talk about loyalty and marketing and operations and price adjustments and controls and redemptions and all of that. I've never seen anything like it, frankly, anywhere. I've seen parts of it, of course, and there's great partner ecosystems out there that bring the different pieces together. I think what Rob's put together at Loop and the team is bringing those pieces together under one roof is a really powerful, powerful statement.

Devon: I do want to touch on how we're providing this to the sports industry. You actually just came back from Vegas with our NCAA integration and what we're doing for sports teams and what we're doing for integration in events. But I just want to kind of sideline a little bit, because you were actually at that event. So this is now three successful implementations with the NCAA. How did that event go? What were you representing at Loop and what were the experiences at that actual event?

Mike: Look, I mean, we've done a number of these. We've talked a lot today about real-time data, and 2020 afforded us an ability to use our capabilities for kind of the greater good, so to speak, right? Help brands. In this case that we're talking about, help colleges get back to some sense of normalcy around sports. Sports is such an important component of college life, and getting sports back on track was an important part. And so when we started to work with schools like University of Houston, which we announced last year, and we started to work with leagues like the NCAA to use our capabilities to get the games going again, in this case, it's been all around men's and women's basketball. It's been exciting to watch.

As you just mentioned, we've had three great pieces of success using our capabilities to help people check in, to understand who's there in real time, to make sure that there's a safety and a peace of mind that's deployed when you're in an environment where there's no fans or some fans. And we've been able to execute that successfully now in three different events. We're now integrating with some PGA events in the future.

But I have to tell you, I mean, watching it happen in real time, seeing that players and coaches and teams and staff and broadcast personnel and fans, it's become a way of life of checking in and tapping the phone. Watching all that occur in real time has been personally rewarding. To be a part of a team at Loop that brought a piece of technology to bear, pivoted a bit in 2020, like many companies and pivot the technology to serve really a good need and a good purpose and then to watch that be deployed so quickly and repetitively now in real time, I mean, this is the second of the three events that I've been able to be at, very well-received, incredible adoption, I mean, high adoption rates of the technology amongst all the attendees and fans. And we've had great success.

I mean, we've been able to track testing, check-ins, movement around the venues, and it's serving not just a purpose, but it's serving a need. Here in the states, where I am, reopening is of course, much like Canada, it's state level or provincial level, but it's providing that peace of mind to venue operators, in this case it was Mandalay Bay, to reopen those venues again with some sense of safety and peace of mind. So massively rewarding to be a part of, and also exciting, because I think it's going to be a piece of technology, and we're seeing it in our customer and client and conversations around the world, it's going to be a piece of technology that's going to be deployed everywhere.

Devon: I know you and Rob had some various successful meetings of showcasing the implementation there in Vegas live, but then also having that conversation of this is what's currently happening right now, but what are all the benefits and activations that we can do? Like we've talked with that direct to customer marketing, that digital engagement side through the Wallet Pass. So my question for you is, what is the sports and entertainment market looking for and how does Loop provide a competitive service compared to all the other things that are out there? We've obviously demonstrated that we can do great engagement. And like you said, great onboarding numbers for in-space. What's that next step and where do we build from there?

Mike: Yeah. Look, let's face it, I love going to live events and I love going to sports and I'm so looking forward to getting back to that again, and I think the technology that we at Loop deploy will become part and parcel to those experiences coming back. Let's go back to a concert again, let's get on a cruise line, let's get on a plane, or go to a game.

And so Rob and I have had great conversations with leagues and teams and venue operators, and some of that is out in the public and we've been on the forefront of like our reopen Vancouver initiatives that we're a part of. That involves travel and tourism and live events and sports and other things. So it's conversations that are occurring. But I think the unique thing about the conversations that are occurring and the unique things about the successes and the wins and the chipping away that we're doing is that, it's not just a utility that we're providing.

Many of our competitors in the space that are popping up, provide a simple utility, check-in, and that's all. I think that the value that Loop provides is we're a data first company. We provide activation against the data. It could be the check-ins or the POS data like we've talked about. But to watch it then be converted to fan engagement, and it's become such a critical thing for these teams, for these leagues, for these venues to perform. They're not going to be at 100% capacity these upcoming seasons, they're going to be at 25%, 10%, 50% capacity. And there are millions of fans around the world.

And so the ability for us to provide a solution, I think is both eyeopening to engage with fans that are out of the venue and also being really, really well received. Because in that scenario, you've got folks going to the Knicks game, or you get people going to the Vegas Nights game or a Yankees game, whatever the case may be. And you're going to have limited capacity, but the Yankees and their brands and their sponsors, they want to stay engaged with people that aren't at the venue, that can't be because of size limitations. And so to be in these conversations and to see that the technology being deployed is not just some must have utility, but a really, really cool tool that keeps fans engaged.

I mean, look, we just did the WBC Canelo fight a couple of weeks ago, and we had great success with that. And watching the engagement that occurred in real time and seeing what it did for the WBC in terms of bringing new fans on board. They had limited capacity, even though it was Florida, not just bringing those fans on board, but also fans engaging during the fight. I mean, we're in a unique spot. I think some things will change in live events moving forward and that may just be the way of the future because of the pandemic, but Loop is right in the center of that. And it's a powerful piece. I got to tell you, every conversation we have, whether it was last week in Vegas with some of the big brands and teams that are there or elsewhere, it's being really, really well received.

Devon: And how have those conversations been going? What are kind of the interesting pieces that these sports teams and sports representatives are looking at?

Mike: Yeah. I mean, I think it's new ways to engage fans digitally. As I mentioned earlier, 2020 was a year of kind of digital transformation for many. They took it as an opportunity to upgrade in-venue experiences. It could be in seat ordering or maybe touchless or contactless experiences in the venue, but it also afforded them a reason to look at their existing marketing initiatives. It's no longer just a napkin with a, I don't know, a Labatt logo on it or something. It has to be extended to the screen that's in our hand. And so a lot of what's happening in that digital transformation, Loop is right in the thick of.

And so our ability to deliver those experiences to the mobile device and to see that the teams are looking for ways, and the brands that partner with the teams are looking for ways to engage with consumers in new ways, both in venue and out of the venue. And we give them an ability to have those experiences, drive those experiences, and measure the result of those experiences. And so I will say that the people that we are talking to, the people that we have already signed with, they're just now reaching the tip of the iceberg of some of the capabilities that we have. And the response has been overwhelming.

There was interesting CPG deployments during the Super Bowl with DiGiorno pizza. We've seen other examples occur in other markets where you just have great consumer participation, be it gamification, new social media followers that are attained, or just really, really cool engagement. It's well beyond anything that I think teams and leagues and venues and retailers had experienced before.

Devon: Yeah. There's one piece that I want to touch on there too. The kind of the benefit that you said with that DiGiorno pizza ad and using mobile wallets as our capability and our use and our delivery channel for engagement, I think is really unique. And maybe even tied to what you've experienced with your past, having built the technology when the technology is not super available or being used, but you see a great exponential growth. And I think that's what we're starting to see with wallet passes is that they're this great piece that's stored on the phone, but they're not being used their full capabilities, and that's what we're working with Apple and Google with to see how can we expand the capabilities of this mobile wallet pass that's native to the phone. It's not another app that they have to download, where we're siloing the customer to another app, it's competing for downloads with maybe a certain team app. What has your experience been with the mobile wallet app side?

Mike: Yeah, look, I think when Loop launched its mobile wallet capability last year, I think for our listeners, to make it crystal clear, the ability for data to drive a mobile wallet experience in real time, as I mentioned earlier, is really unparalleled. As you mentioned, the use of the integrated mobile wallet with an Apple phones and Android phones, it's not an app, it doesn't require you to download anything, it's native on the phone and our ability to deliver content via the mobile wallet, promotions, offers, engagement, all of those things that we've talked about directly to the mobile device, is super innovative.

And the teams, the venue operators, the leagues, this is the next frontier for them. They've spent a lot of money driving experiences within the app. Maybe they've got augmented reality, maybe you're NASCAR, and there's additional camera feeds if you're in the app during a race. And at the end of the day, that's great. They'll continue to innovate and spend money on the app. We provide a gateway to the app. We can onboard customers to the app. You mentioned the DiGiorno piece, they're using the wallet pass, they were onboarding people to their social media feeds. I think they added 40, 50, 60,000 additional Twitter followers. So they're using it as a gateway to these other really great experiences. Many times in venues, at the race track, at the concert, at the game. And many times, different experiences for fans watching at home. You know, enter to win a chance to interact with your favorite, I don't know, your favorite announcer, your favorite hockey player, whatever the case may be.

And so those experiences, I think, as I said earlier, are opening the eyes of the head of marketing and the head of revenue at these teams who have spent so much money trying to drive these billion dollar stadiums and these experiences at the stadiums. And now, there's a way for it to reach out and touch those people on the phone. As I said, I mean, we're right in the thick of it. And I think in many cases, we're leading the way.

I'm in conversations with 50, 60, 70 professional sports teams around the world. I have to tell you, every conversation, their eyes get big, they immediately get the reach, the opportunity, and how it works is a companion so well with their existing digital assets. And so I think there are great things to come with respect to the use of the mobile wallet and our ability to deliver those real-time experiences.

Devon: I mean, sports is just the one that we've been talking right now, but we're working in grocery, retail, restaurants, consumer electronics, convenience. There are so many other pieces there that this is so easily repeatable and bring so many benefits to their existing infrastructure. And then also in different ways as well, too, there's in different industries that we're working with that we find that there's different holes and gaps that this wallet pass answers for them too, which is so unique and also beneficial to what Loop's doing here.

Mike: Well, I think what's interesting about it, you know, running businesses most of my career, I think from our perspective at Loop, having a rinse and repeat model that's easily both repeatable and sticky is fantastic for us as a business execution perspective. It makes our jobs easier as the technology matures and as we get more and more adoption. And you mentioned it yourself, I mean, there's retail. We're in talks with large grocers and large convenience chains. They all have similar experiences in the case of, what do we know about our consumers? How do we get them to come in and spend more money? And how do the brands over the top, reach out and tap those categories and those segments of the population in ways that they want similar to what DiGiorno did during the Super Bowl?

So I'd say in every walk of life, that Loop is interacting. And just to reference again, it's retail, it's travel, tourism, hospitality, and it's live sports and entertainment. I think every one of those presents a rinse and repeat model for us here at Loop. We've got great technology working with some of the best brands and retail brands around the world. Yeah, there's a lot of exciting things to come on this front.

Devon: My final question for today is, what's one thing that you've learned during this pandemic? Now, I know you have a large family at home. That probably takes up a lot of your free time, but maybe it's a hobby that you picked up or a new skill or something that you enjoy doing with your kids.

Mike: Well, Dev, that's a great question. I think I've learned as much as I love my five kids, I would also love them to go back to school in-person and not be at home.

Yeah. Look, I think the pandemic has challenged everybody in all walks of life. We're certainly no different. Knock on wood, we're all healthy and I think that's what matters most to us. I think on the business side, it's been interesting for me, a guy that traveled 300 plus thousand miles a year to see the speed and pace in which business is being done remotely, over Zoom and Google Meet and other things, I think to me, that was probably, at the business perspective, one of the more eye opening pieces that came out of this. And for good, frankly.

There's a lot of people who have been hurt by this, a lot of businesses have been hurt by this. Hopefully, businesses, as we're seeing and people starting to get hired back to work, I think businesses learning to operate in this new way, over video and remotely and what have you, I think that's here to stay. For me, as I said, 20 plus years in technology, traveling the world, I've seen it all. Watching business be conducted virtually this way and the speed this way, I think that makes it really exciting.

Devon: That's great. Well, thanks for taking the time to chat with me today, Mike, and thanks to our listeners for joining. We'll be back next week.

Mike: Thanks, Dev.

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